Editor’s Note: As we did last year around this time,
we will be posting weekly (instead of bi-weekly) while Pistrina Liturgica is
away. Then, after their return,
we’ll be taking a “hiatus” ourselves.
After our last weekly posting, we’ll let our readers know how long that “hiatus”
will be.
Our May 20
article, But What About SSPX and FSSP, got several
comments dissenting with our attitude toward both the SSPX and FSSP – and some
of which had “links” to websites with derogatory information about them. We also got comments accusing us of not
being knowledgeable about the SSPX and FSSP – especially the FSSP. One commenter wrote: “Clearly, the author(s) of this blog are not very familiar
with most traditionalists and the FSSP in particular.” Well, that commenter is absolutely right: we don’t have a thorough, in-depth
knowledge about the FSSP – nor did we ever profess
to have.
But
what we can assert is that, until
proven otherwise, their Mass and sacraments must be assumed to be valid – and, regardless of how many “links” that the dissenters
post to give the impression that the majority of FSSP clergy are liberals and
radicals, that is simply not the case.
By and large, these clergy detest what Bergoglio is doing. And what’s more, most are decent men, not money-grubbing
charlatans like the SGG and MHT cult-masters. Have we personally “checked out” each and every one of
them? Of course not! (Nor have we personally “checked out”
each and every “traddie” priest.)
It is not our business to check out each and every priest to certify
whether he is “good” or “bad.” We
only claim that there are good and bad clergy in any camp, and that anyone with
normal discernment can sort out which is which. And if they “check out” okay, then go with them. It’s as simple as that.
The
dissenting commenters who flooded us with their “links” about errant FSSP or
SSPX priests would have us believe that they’re all “reprobates” and heretics. No, that’s not the case – just as showing what charlatans
the SGG and MHT cult-masters are does not mean that all traditional clergy are trash. And, in the same vein, these commenters have no business pronouncing on the validity of any SSPX or FSSP clergy
(or any other clergy, for that matter).
To those who questioned the validity of these orders – especially those
of the FSSP – let us ask them in return: who among you has the authority
to rule on the validity of their orders?
And under whose jurisdiction do you make such a
claim?
The answer to those two questions is: under no one’s authority or jurisdiction – no one, that is, except a pope. For Traddieland’s “armchair
theologians,” let us repeat that: no one except a pope can make such a judgment. Therefore, until a pope rules that they are invalid, we must assume their orders to be valid. And, along with that, one must also assume that their sacraments are valid. And, since none of us is pope, none of
us can say that one cannot go to one of their priests for Mass or the
sacraments. These commenters can
rant and rave all they want; but their views are only that: their views, i.e., mere opinions, carrying no weight or juridical force whatsoever.
To
these armchair theologians who, like their cult-master idols, try to pass off
their private opinions as “articles of faith,” (and who try to force them on
the rest of us) we have this to say: keep
your opinions to yourselves.
And to these same hair-splitters who dissect every word to find fault
and/or to willfully misconstrue everything one says, we also invite them to act
with at least equal scrutiny toward
their cult-masters heroes. It is
simply amazing how such pious Pecksniffs
can ignore hard, factual evidence about bagworms such as Dannie, Tony, and Big
Don, yet resort to using conjecture and baseless
assertions to denounce and disqualify everyone else.
It
is also amazing how all these people who have never experienced being
personally victimized by the cult-masters, can rule on the testimony of those
who have
been victimized. All the “Robert Rawhides” and “Sal Monelas” of the world who
crawl out of the woodwork to question everyone else, yet defend Dannie and Tony’s depraved justification of
Terri Schiavo’s murder, for example: how can they do that, and still look at
themselves in the mirror every day?
How can these men, who call themselves “Catholic,” take such a position –
and still call themselves “Catholic”?
What kind of “sick puppies” are they that they can stoop to such irrational rationalizations?
What’s
more, what motivates them? What kind of contentment or satisfaction
do they get out of supporting men such as Dolan, Cekada, and Sanborn? It must take a special breed of person
to support these moral lepers, and to categorically deny the truth about them.
Perhaps if they “sign up” and join one of the cults’ leper colonies and
experience firsthand what its previous victims have endured, they might gain
some “perspective” – and we heartily invite them to do so. Perhaps then, if any of their close
friends or relatives ends up in the same predicament as Terri Schiavo, they can
come to Dannie or Tony for “advice” on how to “cost-effectively” deal with it.
No
doubt, for reiterating our position about the SSPX and FSSP, we will get
another flurry of dissident “fan mail.” And, depending on how “disruptive” they are, they’ll either
be answered, or go into the “spam” file.
(And, yes, we’ll try to answer them – until they get to the point where
they are being disruptive simply for disruption’s sake.) But one thing that these disruptive
efforts prove is that our
efforts are working – that they’re having an effect -- and that people’s
attitudes about the cult-masters are changing (regarding Schiavo, for instance).2
People
are listening, and steering clear of the cult
centers. They are no longer
blindly following these imposters and swallowing their swill. People are starting to wake up and think for themselves. The cult centers are dying: their ranks
are shrinking, and their coffers are dwindling – and that’s a good thing. In time, leper colonies like SGG and
MHT will be a thing of the past. We
urge all those who are there to wake up as well, and to hurry that process
along. Do what so many others
before you have done: start by voting with your pocketbooks; and then, “with
your feet”: leave the leper colony! Either way,
Starve the beast!
___________________________
1 For one thing, one can count on an SSPX or FSSP priest to
be better formed, with real moral (and theological) expertise
– and someone you can count on to render real
moral judgments. To repeat
what we said in our original article, “one gets real Catholic morality, not some counterfeit,
make-it-up-as you-go-along claptrap from one of Tradistan’s tinhorn
‘theologians.’ And that’s because their clergy are properly formed,
with a real education at a real, accredited seminary – not some
janitor-in-training apprenticeship from one of Tradistan’s trade schools.
And, because the SSPX and FSSP are part of the institutional Church – and thus answerable
to a hierarchy – they must be fiscally accountable, and not use the
collection basket as their own personal bank account, as the
answerable-to-nobody cult-masters do. They will not fleece their sheep
for money to go on ‘apostolates’ to posh destinations, nor will they solicit
“donations” for questionable ‘improvements.’ In short, they will ‘play by
the rules’ – and not make up their own.”
2 The email traffic at Pistrina
confirms this. (We at Lay Pulpit are not set up to receive
email.) People who, for instance,
heretofore agreed with Phony Tony about Schiavo
(or at least remained acquiescently silent about it) are now speaking out; and more and more are sharing
stories of their own personal experiences of abuses suffered at the hands of
Dannie, Tony, and Big Don.
People’s attitudes are changing, and they are coming to the realization
that the cult-masters are nothing more than self-seeking, self-serving
hucksters.
It's true that no authority has ruled on the validity of the Paul VI Holy orders, but, the fact remains that the rite was changed from the certainly valid Catholic rite into something new.
ReplyDeleteYou may say, "the Pope approved the 1969 rite, therefore it is infallibly safe." That would be true if we could put certainty into Paul VI's Pontifcate. The trouble is that Paul VI was a radical heretic who broke with Catholic doctrine and Tradition on so many matters that are beyond this short post.
I also concede that the Church has not yet ruled on Paul VI, but I also say that there is so much evidence, mountains of it actually, that cast real doubt about him being a Catholic. It is wise to have nothing to do with him, or his laws and teachings pending the judgment of the Church.
By this, I am not getting into the orthodoxy of the FSSP priests, many are fine men and in my opinion are good Catholics. Their personal orthodoxy cannot supply for a defective rite of Holy orders.
I urge you to only partake of the sacraments from certainly valid priests who had the Faith. Most SSPX priests are valid, and the same is true in the eastern rites.
Yes, we agree that Paul VI was a radical; but there is nothing inherently heretical in the new rite for ordination. Yes, it’s different. But the “old rite” was “new” at one time, and different from what came before it. Some people have doubted its validity; but they are not popes – nor is there enough evidence to definitively declare it invalid. So the fact remains, until such time that a pope rules on it one way or the other, one cannot claim that it is invalid.
DeleteNot being a theologian, I am not going to get into any discussion on the validity of orders. But my personal opinion is that, if there is nothing inherently heretical in the new rite, that, and there is no one to decide on its validity, then I will assume it to be valid – and I would not let that stand in the way of following a good man who was ordained that way. Conversely, I would not follow someone like Dolan, Cekada, or Sanborn, no matter how “impeccable” their credentials were.
That said, if someone has serious doubts about FSSP priests, and wants to be “safe,” then, by all means, he should follow his conscience. But I have no such doubts – and I will follow mine.
I also am not saying it is valid or invalid. My point is just to draw your attention to the fact that the Rite came from a man who taught heresy to the universal Church, therefore casting legitimate doubt upon his papal claim. If he was not a Pope, the rites promulgated by him are not guaranteed as certainly valid. With that thought in mind, I merely urging you to go to rites approved by the Church (found at SSPX, Eastern Rites, etc.) which cannot by that fact be invalid.
ReplyDeleteThe very fact that a man whose papal claim is in serious doubt gave us a new and gutted rite is enough to cause a legitimate doubt. Certainty comes from certain authority, when that is lacking, everything that comes from the uncertain authority lacks certainty.
We don't have to be theolgians to wait for the Church to deal with these matters, what we can and must do is avoid everything that is suspect as to it coming from the Church until the authority resolves it, The Paul VI rites (episcopal and sacerdotal holy orders, the mass, and Confirmation) are possibly invalid, as they use new formulations not approved by the Church.
Some may argue that the changes do not cause invalidity, but that is merely an opinion, the Authority of the Catholic Church has yet to settle the matter. The possibility of invalidity alone from rites that came from a public heretic with a questionable (or doubtful) papal claim, should cause Catholics to flee from them.
With that, I have said what I felt compelled to say in charity. I will say no more.
Your points are certainly well taken; and, having read plenty of your comments on Pistrina, I certainly know that what you say is indeed said in charity – and with wisdom. I am also mindful of the risks and caveats that you mentioned about with FSSP. In a perfect world, we would not be faced with such dilemmas and hard choices; but today’s world is not a perfect one. It is one in which one must make choices that one would otherwise not be required (or would wish) to make. Is the FSSP a perfectly safe bet? Certainly not. And, although the FSSP clergy that I know on the personal level are good, decent men, I certainly haven’t the experience or the mental skill to offer a blanket endorsement of them. Nor, may I add, do I “have the smarts” to positively affirm their validity; but I can attest that these men care about souls – and that men like Dolan, Cekada, and Sanborn do not.
DeleteAnd whether or not the FSSP will ultimately remain true to the Faith, I honestly do not know. But what I do know is that the SSG and MHT cult centers are consummate threats to one’s soul (and are, in fact, the reason that this blog was created). And, given a choice between them and a good FSSP priest, I’d have no hesitation in choosing the latter. What I truly believe (and hope) is that, whether or not the FSSP as a whole remains true to the Faith, many of their individual clergy will (just as many SSPX and “traddie” clergy will).
It is these men whom I am talking about. If they stand up for what’s right, I’ll endorse them, no matter what their “lineage” or their “pedigree” or their other “credentials” are. In time, it is my hope that these good men, whatever their stripe, will join together and save Catholicism. And it is also my hope that one day the Church will be fully restored, and that we won’t have to keep “groping around in the dark” as we are now doing.
My first experience with an FSSP Priest was a Priest that I went to confession to. This FSSP Priest referred me to a Masonic Group for a problem I confessed to in the confessional. I was flabbergasted and speechless as a result. Although I realize that maybe not all FSSP Priests are of the mindset of this particular Priest, I think it best to stay away. I have never attended Tradistan or the cults, but my encounter with the FSSP was, in my opinion, just as bad. I have attended an Eastern Rite Church and that is where I will continue to attend. In my opinion there is something very wrong for a FSSP Priest to recommend I attend a Masonic group for a problem.
ReplyDeleteYou are indeed right to stay away from a priest who gives you such advice. But you would also be right to stay away from Tradistan, whose “priests” have on several occasions abused the “seal of confession.” and have also refused absolution to a number of people (as if they had the power to do so). The SGG and MHT cults often use the confessional (and the other sacraments) as “weapons” to threaten people and to bend them to their will.
DeleteA simple rule is to stay away from anyone, no matter who he is (or to which “group” he belongs), who does not act in a Catholic manner. And if you have an “alternative” (as you do in your case), then “go for it.” But let me also say that there are many FSSP priests who DO act in a Catholic manner, and I would not disqualify them because of “one bad apple.”
What Masonic group? I just can't imagine an FSSP priest sending anyone to the local Masonic lodge for a personal problem unless for good fellowship as is the main function in the US now.
DeleteYes, we also can’t imagine why any FSSP priest would ever send someone to a Masonic group for advice. But there is no way we can question the commenter’s veracity – but he did not question ours, so we won’t question his. All we can say is that his experiences with the FSSP do not match our own – and such things do happen. What this should tell us is that, regardless of what a priest’s “credentials might be, one must “check him out” first before choosing to follow him.
DeleteSorry I have been late in responding to Anon. 8:43 question as to which Masonic group I was referring to that the FSSP told me to attend. It was a 12 Step Group "Smokers Anonymous". The 12 step groups originated from the Protestant/Masonic Oxford Group. Any good Traditional Priest, in my estimation should know this.
DeleteRegarding going to “smokers’ anonymous as “going to a Masonic group for advice” is like accusing someone who buys a product made by a Masonic company of “supporting the Masons.” Just about every company in America is Masonic (and so is the country, for that matter). So accusing the FSSP of referring somebody to Masons for advice is absolutely ludicrous. Anon. 9-11, 11:07 AM/9-16, 11:29 AM, take a “reality pill.” That accusation won’t do.
DeleteBuying a product is different than going to a group that promotes heresies that may corrupt ones soul. The anonymous groups claim to be "spiritual". They claim that belief in "any higher power" will do.
DeleteYou folk here at The Lay Pulpit do a fine job of exposing the cults of SGG/MHTS.Do you not know much about CMRI?
ReplyDeleteJust reading August MHTS newsletter and the people who made the comments over on PL some weeks back about Big Don taking over the CMRI Brisbane group has come true.Not bad don't you think for one of Piv's "priests" to lose not only numbers of people in Down Under New Zealand,Fiji and now most of their faithful in Australia.Wonder how many faithful have been hurt by that "priest".It would be good if those Down Under in Australia,etc would come forward and tell us more.
No, we are not that knowledgeable about the CMRI, except what we hear from commenters on our (and PL’s) articles, and some occasional “intelligence” from individuals. From what we’ve heard from trustworthy informed sources, though, CMRI’s seminary (Mater Dei) is as much of a joke as Sanborn’s MHT; and its head, Pivarunas, is very poorly educated – and just as worldly as Dolan and Sanborn. Beyond that, we don’t have in-depth firsthand knowledge of them, because we were never involved with them, as we were with SGG. Our sense is that, although CMRI priests are not all that well-formed, they are more “pastoral” and “non-worldly” than the completers who come out of Sanborn’s MHT puppy-mill.
DeletePistrina could probably tell you more about them; and they might also have more information about what’s going on in Australia. Our knowledge of what’s going on there is nil.
Anonymous September 12,2017 9.35.A bit of a joke too when Pivarunas had been down Under twice.Why does he allow that "priest" to work with him or is it the old saying birds of a feather flock together.
DeleteThe Watcher,what do you mean Pivarunas is just as worldly as Dolan and Sanborn.Please tell us more.
By “just as worldly as Dolan and Sanborn,” we mean that we have heard (from several reliable sources) that Pivarunas lives “the good life” just as they do – opulent lifestyle, good food, travel, etc. Several of these sources have informed us by their comments on our articles (and especially on PL); and some "sources" are eye witnesses with whom we (and PL) have spoken. However (also from what we’ve heard) this doesn’t seem to be the case with the “rank and file” clergy. Concerning Australia, again we must plead ignorance about what’s going on there. We’d have to defer to PL on that.
DeleteThe Watcher.You are right on the money concerning Piv.He always looks well fed while his clerics are skin and bone.What a scum bag.We have had a bad feeling for some time about him and his morals.Don't think it would shock you folk if one day it comes out he has been up to other evil things(i.e a moral issue)Keep up the fine articles and let us pray for a end to this mess.
ReplyDeleteYes, we've heard some pretty "sick" descriptions of him from some of the comments that we (and Pistrina) have received -- and from people personally involved with him. Frankly, we think he's just as bad as Dannie, Tony, and Depraved Don -- and perhaps worse.
ReplyDelete